Define "Original Photographer"

[U-Man]

I see both sides of the issue. But consider this –>

I compose a pic, put my camera on a tripod, set up external flashes, dial in correct manual settings on my camera, take test shots then get my daughter to smile by pretend farting.

But my wife pushes the button.

I contend that the photo is more mine than hers. I don’t think the button pushing is THE defining factor. It is only one of them.

Basically, I’m going to stay true to myself and follow the spirit of this community.

[justkat]

U-Man – I agree in a general sense. If I were considering a picture for sale, I might consider that okay. This is farktography, though, and has its unique issues. It may be a little nitpicky — maybe — but every contest needs to have rules (farktography in general, not any particular contest) and I don’t see a pressing need to change this one.

[U-Man]

This is farktography, though, and has its unique issues.

The primary issue is that we are a bunch of goof-balls (myself definitely included). 🙂

I have no beef with your comment. I just wanted to point out that the button-pushing is only a small part of the picher-making. I don’t plan on having anyone push my buttons. (I honestly don’t like to have the Mrs. even look too closely at my gear. Can’t imagine sharing with another farktographer in the same house!)

[Elsinore]

If it had been Zeke who had pressed the shutter, I probably would never have even thought about the possibility of using the pic, because he actually does do some photography/farktography and might have influenced the composition in some way. I was certain that wasn’t the case with this particular picture because my sister knows nothing about photography let alone my camera, its lenses, or the flash, and I had directed and pre-set everything. But it’s all good. Even with a majority of those chiming in weighing in on the “it’s fair” side, there are enough of you on the other side, that I wouldn’t feel right using the photo even if I were still considering it (which I’m not).

[olavf]

I’ve been chewing on this for a couple of days, and I have a few more thoughts:
Firstly, I’ve been under the impression that ‘you have to push the button’ has been a fairly hard rule around here. I may have misunderstood that, but it’s almost certainly my understanding of how the rules have been interpreted.

Now, the contest rule (as posted) is a much more gray “you must be the farktographer” which is probably the more correct rule, and certainly allows for some wiggle-room. All things considered, it’s pretty fair to say that Elsinore would be considered the photographer in most cases, and by most people. On the inverse, it would also be fair to say that her sister definitely was not the photographer, because *all* she did was push the trigger. And the same case could/should be made for remote sensor/trigger devices, where a machine is ‘pushing the trigger’. (We *do* allow those, after all).

The big question is where is the line in the sand drawn, and how is it policed/posed to a questionable shot. Should that be a hard rule? A rule-of-thumb? Rule with exceptions by consensus? Dropped altogether and left up to the Farktographer to interpret? I suggest this would make a good side discussion without clogging up this thread too much further, particularly since Els has said she’s inclined not to use it for other reasons this week.

[Elsinore]

Alas, one of my favorite family shots is one where I set up everything on the camera down to the flash, exposure compensation, aperture, focal point, focal length, and exact positioning of the camera. But I didn’t have my tripod that day, so my sister had to be the remote shutter release. Just don’t feel like I could submit that since she pressed the shutter.

[Elsinore]

The only other time this really came up was with a shot monkeybort submitted years ago, and in that case, the camera didn’t have a self-timer, so her husband tripped the shutter. I hadn’t really considered the wording of “original photographer”…the notion of “you have to have pressed the button” has just kind of been our understood rule/interpretation over the years, monkeybort’s pic notwithstanding.

[CauseISaidSo]

In an ideal world, everyone would fully understand the grayness behind “you must be the photographer” and know where the line is. In the real world, there are going to be people who take advantage of that grayness and push it to the line and beyond, which is why you need concrete black & white rules like “you must have pressed the button.”

Personally, I think this is kind of a don’t ask, don’t tell situation. Should Elsinore (or any of you) decide to enter a photo for which you did all of the prep work except pressing the button, I’d have no beef about it at all. The issues arise when it’s brought up for discussion and we try to explicity define that which we all intuitively know. Generally, you end up opening up several more loopholes when trying to tightly define a rule like that. I think it’s akin to the Supreme Court’s take on obscenity – there are no hard and fast rules on what defines it, but they know it when they see it.

I don’t know if I made sense with any of that, but that’s my two cents on the subject.

[ennuipoet]

OK, after digesting this for a day or so: What is the difference between having someone else push the shutter and setting a timer or clicking a remote shutter? The photographer conceives, composes, and lights a scene, the activation of the shutter is a mechanical component, not a creative component.

Let me put is this way, say I am working for Joe McNally as a photo assistant, he sets up a shoot, gets everything read to go and then turns to me and says “wanna trip the shutter?” and I do. Does that make me the photographer? I’m sure Joe and the publisher would beg to differ.

In this case Elsinore is the creative vision behind the photograph, she constructed the scene, decided on every element about the scene, she is the photographer. It doesn’t matter who pushed the shutter.

[Farktographer]

In this case Elsinore is the creative vision behind the photograph, she constructed the scene, decided on every element about the scene, she is the photographer. It doesn’t matter who pushed the shutter.

I’m leaning heavily towards this sort of definition. If you can consider yourself the photographer of a given picture, then I would think it’s fair game for entry. If you’re confident you could put a copyright on it and claim it as your own creation, then it’s yours to submit. If there’s internal dissonance of any sort, or you’d feel guilty for it, then just don’t (like someone mentioned before, we don’t have Farktography police that will be able to track down who actually tripped the shutter).

During Easter, I had my camera set up in manual mode. I got the exposure, the general setting, the subjects, the lighting, everything set up, then handed it off to my sister-in-law. She composed the final picture before tripping the shutter, so I’d instantly consider that her picture – I’d never lay claim to it. However, if I had my camera set up on a tripod and I composed the shot, and all she did was trip the trigger? I’d absolutely call that my photograph. It’d just feel like it was mine, and I’d have no problem claiming it as such.

/my 2?

[Plamadude30k]

Here’s a special case: Say I’ve brought somebody up to my big research telescope and we’re taking what I like to call ‘pretty pictures’ (usually I’m alone up there, but Rav visited once. It was cloudy, though so we got nothing). Given that the operation of the camera in this situation is a bit involved, I would probably have to be pressing all of the buttons, but somebody else could be directing me about composition, exposure, etc. If I then press the ‘Expose’ button, do I instantly become the photographer, even thought I’ve done only the job of a trained monkey? I’m leaning towards no. This is, in fact, what we have at a lot of the big observatories-dedicated operators directed by astronomers doing the actual research. The telescope operators aren’t called astronomers-they just press the buttons. To play devil’s avocado, though, it would be hard not to give credit to the operator. It’s a bit of a grey area, to be sure.

[Farktographer]

Here’s a special case: Say I’ve brought somebody up to my big research telescope and we’re taking what I like to call ‘pretty pictures’ (usually I’m alone up there, but Rav visited once. It was cloudy, though so we got nothing). Given that the operation of the camera in this situation is a bit involved, I would probably have to be pressing all of the buttons, but somebody else could be directing me about composition, exposure, etc. If I then press the ‘Expose’ button, do I instantly become the photographer, even thought I’ve done only the job of a trained monkey? I’m leaning towards no. This is, in fact, what we have at a lot of the big observatories-dedicated operators directed by astronomers doing the actual research. The telescope operators aren’t called astronomers-they just press the buttons. To play devil’s avocado, though, it would be hard not to give credit to the operator. It’s a bit of a grey area, to be sure.

::sigh:: just HAD to make the grey area even more grey, didn’t you Plama? 🙄

I’m in the camp that the person directing everything would be the photographer. The composition as a whole, set with them telling you how to expose, what to aim for, et cetera, would be their creation if you’re practically flying blind.

It’d be a bit like a composer crafting his masterpiece – sure, there are lots of musicians involved in the symphony, but everyone in the audience really knows who created the final piece, and only the composer is going to be able to take full credit for it.

/Edit to say: this case is a real tough one, though. It has me split down the middle. I can see how very valid arguments could be made against using a photo formed this way.

[SilverStag]

While in the movie business, the director gets all the credit, there is a recognized craft for photography (cinematography, actually). But here’s the rub: On how many movies can you name the Cinematographer of vs. How many movies can you name the Director of?

The argument could be made that splitting the jobs of directing the shot (photographer) vs. being a Camera Operator (pushing the button) is a valid distinction. I think we’ve beanplated this to death. I’m gonna set up a poll. Democracy and all that jazz..

[Kestrana]

I’m glad this got moved over here because I didn’t want to stir up more controversy but I’m in agreement with the designer of the photograph is the photographer, even if for some reason they didn’t push the button. I was going to make an analogy that the writer of the play is still credited with the play even years after dozens of production houses have taken the material and run with it but ennuipoet’s analogy to make the same point was much more eloquent.

In “The Song Remains the Same” I used a picture of myself holding a hand of cards with the ace exposed. Orionid actually pressed the button on that (we can’t actually remember why but there was some technical reason that was making it difficult for me to do it and we couldn’t find the remote trigger) but it was my idea and I set up and executed everything. At the same time, we try very hard not to break Farktography rules and I don’t think something like that should become commonplace.

I think the litmus test for yourself is “Could someone else take credit for making this photograph?” Whatever the reason, if the answer is yes, don’t use it. Sometimes another human is just another piece of equipment but they shouldn’t cross the line into the development/creative/directive process.

[SilverStag]

I added a poll to the Pollage place.

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