Do You Tell People Why They Suck?

[ennuipoet]

I had to leave the freelance job at Yankee Stadium, the money was not worth the incredible hassle of working there. The entire operation revolves around quantity and not quality, horrible photographers make more money than good ones because they take more photos, but their shots suck.

The owner of the company asked me the other day what I thought, and I begged off answering because I didn’t want to stab anyone in the back or make it look like I was trying to get their jobs. I had not decided if I was going to quit the job.

Now that I have, should I explain exactly why his operation is failing or just walk away.

Thoughts?

[CauseISaidSo]

If he’s a good businessman and was sincere in his original question, he’ll appreciate any feedback that’s presented in a non-confrontational manner. If you care enough about him and/or his business to want to take the time to provide your opinion, I’d say go for it.

Having said that, while the photography side of me knows exactly what you’re saying (& feels similarly), the business side of me has a couple of questions: When you say the poor photographers make more money because they take more photos, does that imply that they also sell more of their photos? If so, the public doesn’t seem to care so there’s not really much business reason for him to prefer good photographers over the poor ones; probably even less so because poor photographers likely won’t have a lot of other opportunities to choose from, which would allow him to offer lower wages.

If you sincerely want him to change his practices, you’ll have to approach it with the business side in mind. Do the better photographers sell a higher percentage of the shots they take? Are there upsell packages available that the better photographers have more success selling? (I’d imagine the creativity required to be a good photographer would help a lot there.) Show him where quality will boost profits and that’ll get his attention.

Oh and also, condolences on your job. 🙁 It’s easy for me to say, of course, but it’s probably for the best if it’s truly that bad; in the long run, it’d likely make you grow to despise something that you currently love.

[ennuipoet]

If he’s a good businessman and was sincere in his original question, he’ll appreciate any feedback that’s presented in a non-confrontational manner. If you care enough about him and/or his business to want to take the time to provide your opinion, I’d say go for it.

Having said that, while the photography side of me knows exactly what you’re saying (& feels similarly), the business side of me has a couple of questions: When you say the poor photographers make more money because they take more photos, does that imply that they also sell more of their photos? If so, the public doesn’t seem to care so there’s not really much business reason for him to prefer good photographers over the poor ones; probably even less so because poor photographers likely won’t have a lot of other opportunities to choose from, which would allow him to offer lower wages.

If you sincerely want him to change his practices, you’ll have to approach it with the business side in mind. Do the better photographers sell a higher percentage of the shots they take? Are there upsell packages available that the better photographers have more success selling? (I’d imagine the creativity required to be a good photographer would help a lot there.) Show him where quality will boost profits and that’ll get his attention.

Oh and also, condolences on your job. 🙁 It’s easy for me to say, of course, but it’s probably for the best if it’s truly that bad; in the long run, it’d likely make you grow to despise something that you currently love.

I wish I was privy to the sales numbers, I am sure someone must have them but I never had access. Basically, I assume the guys who took 800 photos a day sold more photos on sheer volume which is what the bosses wanted. If they guy who took 800 shots and made 200 bucks for the day sells ten photos he’s paid for his services, and he probably sells more than ten. Now if I take 200 shots and I sell ten photos, I made 50 bucks but the company still makes 25 bucks a pop on my ten photos. It’s a good deal for the company, shitty deal for me.

So, the company is running an odds game, figuring a high shot count means more LIKELY buyers, it is probably a good bet.

The problem, for me, was they way the big number guys got their shots. They camped on the entrances and basically physically stopped the people and took their shots. Me, I approached the fan, asked for permission, engaged them in a little conversation and took their. The big number guys shoot 5 people in the time it took me to shoot one, they are also shooting a lot (a LOT) of people which will never buy a photo because they really didn’t want one taken in the first place. So, it made the shooter money but never has a chance of making the company money.

I think I am going to write the owner an email and tell him why I think things are not going as well as he hopes. I have left and I pose no threat to any of them. And he deserves to know.

You are so right on the leaving before I started to hate it. I can make money from photography, but not like that.

[ravnostic]

Perhaps, if you put it in words well, you’ll be invited back, and on better terms. It’s possible. Accent on the positive, while pointing out the problems (with the paradigm, the situation, etc.). Emphasize what you liked about the position. Constructive criticism and all that. Doors open. Good luck!

[ravnostic]

p.s. My current job has nothing to do with photography, but I got fired shortly after being made ‘permanent’, and fought against it with facts and data and positivity. I got hired back on; the first (I was told) that anyone had ever seen. Words matter; presentation matters.

//ironically, it’s screwed me out of promotions, as the HR gal that originally fired me is in every interview I have and has taken to make sure I don’t manage to grow within the company. Still working on that; but I still hold the job, at least. It’s a challenge I work upon every working day, and I’ll get there. At some point, I believe, her influence will no longer be enough.

[orionid]

I think I am going to write the owner an email and tell him why I think things are not going as well as he hopes. I have left and I pose no threat to any of them. And he deserves to know.

This. Almost. Do it snail mail. I’ve found that in this day of instant everything, taking the time to construct an old-school written letter with a pen-and-ink signature stands out tremendously.

//ironically, it’s screwed me out of promotions, as the HR gal that originally fired me is in every interview I have and has taken to make sure I don’t manage to grow within the company.

Get me her contact info, then post a topic here using the floppy disk icon above, 48 hours before your next interview. Establish an alibi for yourself. She’ll be home with a stomach bug the day you interview.

This message will auto-delete 30 seconds after reading

[fluffybunny]

I don’t even have a horse in the race and I appreciate reading everyone’s take on this.

We have probably all experienced this type of photo sell at one point or another, and my reaction has always been negative. The only time I’ve ever gone along is in the low pressure environment and generally only because some one else in the group wants the photo. The high pressure guys are right out. I’m sure his model is the simplest based on what I’ve read thus far, but there might be other low cost (from his perspective) options.

Obviously you can sell photographs in that environment. Maybe if the owner considered all the photogs as contractors who paid a flat rate for crowd access it would give you latitude personally about the quality / quantity choices. Perhaps he could employ two “styles” of photographer, fast and furious or artful.

0.02$

/Cujos to you for being willing NOT to sell your soul.

[ennuipoet]

We have probably all experienced this type of photo sell at one point or another, and my reaction has always been negative. The only time I’ve ever gone along is in the low pressure environment and generally only because some one else in the group wants the photo. The high pressure guys are right out. I’m sure his model is the simplest based on what I’ve read thus far, but there might be other low cost (from his perspective) options.

…

0.02$

/Cujos to you for being willing NOT to sell your soul.

I tried very hard to pick my subjects, looking for people who were dressed enthusiastically, particularly people with kids in full team regalia. I approached with a joke and smile, and always a low key no pressure request to take their photo. I know it worked because 60-70% of the people I approached let me take their pics…and I would bet at least 50% of those I took at least LOOKED at their photos.

Thus the difference between 800 shots and 200 shots. Good for the company, crappy for me.

Even with my methods, I still felt like an asshole. I think a photograph should be something people WANT to do, otherwise you have a snapshot of an unhappy person about as compelling as a cardboard.

But you are right, I felt like my soul was dying the whole time I was there.

orionid what is this “paper” you speak of and this “handwriting” I seem to remember it from long, long ago.

[Yugoboy]

You need a T-Shirt that advertises what you’re doing so you become approachable.

Tomorrow’s Memories!
Have you or your child’s day at the ballpark immortalized on paper, mugs or t-shirts!
Ask me how!

Or something similarly. Exclamation points are important.

!

[fluffybunny]

I had a thought (always thinking),..

If quality is not a part of this guy’s business model that what is he actually selling?

Someone to hold the camera and the print.

In this day of phone-cam, insta-gram, wham-bam-thank-ya-mam I’m surprised that he has a viable business model at all. Perhaps he is seeing fall off and compensating for it by volume and statistics. Probably not a long term solution. The long term (IMHO) would be to stand out, quality and personal service would be key parameters in this equation.

There is a guy somewhere on the internets, selling “pencil sharpening”. You send him a #2 and he sends it back, having personally hand sharpened it to fine point, in a nice case with a certificate. Twenty or so bucks IIRC. Was making a good living. Quality and service.

PS. Went and found him:
http://www.artisanalpencilsharpening.com/

Some of my facts may be off about him but the idea is accurate.

/edited to add an exclamation point.

!

[orionid]

I think a photograph should be something people WANT to do, otherwise you have a snapshot of an unhappy person about as compelling as a cardboard.

You mean like this one, just a few hours after I found out that the girl in red was cheating on me with the tall dude behind her? If you’ve ever seen more of a forced smile than the one I’m wearing there (yellow aloha shirt, blue hat), it couldn’t have been by much.

Group Shot by Orionid, on Flickr

/handwriting – like typing one handed, with an ink pen, and no electronic devices in sight.

[Yugoboy]

Question: do people pick up their photos right at the ballpark before leaving, or do they go home, look at them and order on-line? The difference there is important.

If the second, I bet you’ve got a much higher percentage, and thus more likely better sales/shot ratio. If you’re also providing quality images that are more interesting than those flacks who accost people at the front entrance, your shots may also result in more copies sold or even the possibility of secondary sales like mugs and T-shirts and stuff.

If the first, then you are hindered by the fact that the people who are more likely to impulse buy, are also those people less apt to care quite as much about quality.

As for the question of whether or not to tell people they suck, my wife is trying to tell me to do less of that. I keep trying to tell her honesty is the best policy, but she doesn’t want to hear it.

[staplermofo]

As for the question of whether or not to tell people they suck, my wife is trying to tell me to do less of that. I keep trying to tell her honesty is the best policy, but she doesn’t want to hear it.

If people care about being better about something they usually fix it on their own. Unless telling them they suck is linked to something else they might be oblivious to, it’s probably not doing much good. (example: “You suck at improv. They want you there so they can make jokes about minorities without looking racist.”)

Devil’s advocate thing, maybe the people who aren’t enthusiastic or looking at you are just shy, and would want the picture when they’re not worried about why some guy is pointing a camera at them. I have like 5 photos of myself growing up because everyone in my family was too self-hating, anxious or whatever to take a god damn picture. We’d never say no to a picture, but we’d never go out of our way for one. One of the 5 was taken at an amusement park by an annoying asshole in a red and white vertically striped costume, everyone looks miserable, I’m glad I have it.

fluffybunny, pencil sharpening is a whole thing. I’ve run into them buying staplers, there are a ton of them and they have strong opinions. Some of those old fashioned pencil sharpeners built into the walls of schools sell for thousands.

orionid, haha, you were alive in the 90s.

[ennuipoet]

Question: do people pick up their photos right at the ballpark before leaving, or do they go home, look at them and order on-line? The difference there is important.

If the second, I bet you’ve got a much higher percentage, and thus more likely better sales/shot ratio. If you’re also providing quality images that are more interesting than those flacks who accost people at the front entrance, your shots may also result in more copies sold or even the possibility of secondary sales like mugs and T-shirts and stuff.

If the first, then you are hindered by the fact that the people who are more likely to impulse buy, are also those people less apt to care quite as much about quality.

As for the question of whether or not to tell people they suck, my wife is trying to tell me to do less of that. I keep trying to tell her honesty is the best policy, but she doesn’t want to hear it.

The goal was to get people to buy at the ballpark since the company received more money from that than web buys or digital downloads. I really would like to see the sales numbers rather than the raw shot count to know if I am just imagining my superior sales numbers 😀

The one thing I don’t want to appear as though I am doing is engaging in some sort of recrimination. I didn’t leave the job because of artistic snit or anger, I left because it wasn’t for me. But I know the boss had questions about why things were not doing as well as he hoped.

orionid: yeah, your body language is a tad cold in that shot. Also, have you SEEN my handwriting? I barely remember how to do it.

[nobigdeal]

Eh, you were working in Yankee Stadium. The three hour scalding hot showers to rid yourself of the unclean after every game must have really sucked anyway.

Honestly I wouldn’t worry too much about it unless you really like the guy. As others have said, that is a dying business model in the day of smart phones and instagram.

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